through consciousness development you start to become aware of different layers in reality you can access wisdom confront the unknown courageously speak truth have enough integrity so that you can break the rules when it’s necessary in the service of a higher good to know that is to be human you need to be extremely passionate about what you do and if you’re passionate about what you do then this will infect others a lot of people are slaves of their fears and their patterns but it’s very important that you’re free

and authentic if you have the ability to empty your mind and perceive then you can see actually it’s inside out start with yourself and then you will be more capable of looking at the outside world we have to really slow down and ask ourselves what are we doing here and what what responsibility we carry for future generations i am jarel anachor and this is the awake origins podcast here to break down the misconceptions about success and happiness bringing you inspiration from awake leaders entrepreneurs and creators to empower

you to create your life from the inside out zieger shoulder it’s great to have you on the podcast thank you for being here we’ve met i think it was the beginning of this year not too long ago well we had some special moments together in between that moment and right now what i love about you is of course you’re an entrepreneur you’re a change maker the way i look at you and of your presence and and your playful nature it’s uh you can already see where you look at your eye with that smile of yours

so i’m i’ve i’ve been looking forward to this conversation just to see where it will and what will happen where it will uh where it will go but thank you for taking your time to be here yeah of course what what i’m um i think you’re old are you 27 28 27 27 so you’re well there’s more than a decade in age difference between the two of us so for me you’re almost like a new generation and um when i look at myself it’s look at my awakening process it was kind of an abrupt thing that happened and but when

i look at you you’re more like the natural from my perspective has always been in in that knowing i’m not sure if that’s true but that’s the way it feels so what i’m what i want to start out with is can you describe how your uh awakening process went what what was the journey for you um yeah that’s a good question yeah it was a longer i i it’s great that you see me as this like it’s come from a knowing i think a little bit but like it’s definitely being like uh up and down and also real not knowing

a lot um but yeah i think it started i or really started for me when i was 16. um i was i don’t know i remember this piece of information coming into my life where i was like i’m gonna die and my parents are gonna die and everyone i love is gonna die and that just like it was just a piece of information that came into my mind and i was like like a thought like yeah like a thought it was just like it was a realization it was like okay i’m gonna die and my parents are gonna die and then where was this were you at

school or something i i think i i think i was at home like it was like in the evening like i was going to bed and i i suddenly this piece of information came to me where i just realized it and it was like oh my god it’s so true like i’m gonna die and everyone someday yeah yeah someday i didn’t think i was gonna die right that moment but it was just like there’s a really clear what and i just didn’t know how to deal with it so it was really like i ended up like crying in my bed i for multiple days at the end because you

felt so into because i felt so i felt so like this is a realization and i don’t know what to do with it like i couldn’t i couldn’t give it like a a place you know and i think at that in that time and for i think quite a long time in my kind of process um i’ve really tried to conceptualize it always i’ve always tried to so i think at that moment in time i was really like i was really trying to conceptualize it and i didn’t i just didn’t know what to do with it so i remember just being a few days

like crying in bed and then one day my dad randomly asked me hey do you want to go to this buddhist meeting as as he was leaving the house like like really last moment i was like yeah okay yeah sure your dad yeah my dad um who has nothing with spirituality at all like a a friend of his asked to come along once and so then i went together with him and then we went down like into the city center and these buddhist meetings was in amsterdam this was in budapest budapest yeah um and these buddhist meetings are

always held in these like little living rooms so we entered this living room we’re already 15 minutes late and there’s a group of 20 people sitting there chanting to a thing like and as like as a first time coming in there it was you know it felt very weird it felt like you just joined in the back and you don’t even know the words so you’re just there like and you can’t like it’s so hard to hear the words when a group of people are chanting but so it was quite a bizarre experience um but then at the end like that very

meeting after the chanting they always had like half an hour of chanting and then an hour of talking about philosophy and life and that very time they talked about death as their topic they’re kidding so like suddenly it was for me like oh my god someone is talking about this because i i hadn’t found answers and it was not an easy like conversation starter at school either so i was like i was finally and i was together with this group of you know 20 people who are all above 50 some near their death talking about

death and then you know partly using the buddhist lens but also using their experiences and that and then after that meeting my dad never went back and i went every single week i went and i started chanting and meditating and yeah and that’s kind of and that i did that for for four or five years you were living in budapest back then yeah so between when i was 10 and 18 i lived in budapest and then i moved to delft and then when i was in delft as well i kept my buddhist traditions which is like created

hilarious scenarios of me you know chanting while like student flatmates of mine were like drinking beers next to me and me just trying to like dedicate myself to my practice but after a while they they they accepted it and understood it but so what happened with the first thing about death what what did the meeting help or what happened in the weeks that followed yeah i think i mean this question of death i think has been quite a center point in my whole journey so it’s still like it’s still a question that informs me

today um and it’s still something that inspires me a lot today i think it it’s started losing the morbid feeling behind it and now is like and like informing me more about what does aliveness feel like and how how do you feel really truly alive you know so it’s like a more of an informant and i think at that time i think for a very long period i kind of conceptualized it i was like oh but if you do this and this then death is okay or something or you know like i i definitely from when i was 16 spent multitude of

years building this huge like spiritual framework under which i felt like oh okay but if you live life in this way in this way and this way and you do this and this and this then then it makes sense and then the universe makes sense and then the world makes sense and i think just quite recently i’ve gotten more into this place where it’s like okay the whole framework is also just a framework i’ve created and more trusting into than not knowing and into just the feeling of it and sensing and the

real like direct experience and from there just feeling like oh i can live my truth from that without it having to have this huge conceptual framework that every time a new idea comes in i have to force it into the framework costs so much energy like i’ve realized how much energy i spent in the last probably 10 years trying to like force things into my framework that was like really like this huge castle yeah so what is the the what is spirituality for you now if you would give it words what is it what is the journey about

i know it’s still words and it’s still frameworking stuff but yeah i think it’s um i think it’s kind of a living as a form or living as a human um from a deeper place almost of unknowing but like of of an embrace of unknowing so it’s more like accepting accepting kind of the accepting the the non-knowing and really just stepping fully into kind of this human very form experience but with a connection to to something greater that just helps helps inform actions or you know it’s i don’t know it’s like so

difficult to describe it’s really transformed into a feeling which has transformed into aliveness and direction and a feeling of like i don’t know of flowing as well uh yeah it’s very hard so what does this mean how do you do this that living from a place of that connection how do you cultivate that connection yeah how do you do that yeah i well i i think for the last 10 years it’s really meditation has really been central in it uh meditation just every day sitting in the morning and sitting down and just looking at what

would come up and looking at your thoughts and looking at the emotions and and therefore just yeah i guess building awareness around everything that’s going on and all your ideas and all your concerts and all everything that that happens in any moment so i i would definitely say meditation has been this center point as a practice in terms of cultivating that and then i i feel also just a kind of a vulnerability to direct experience or a certain openness to direct experience that’s really as of late or as of like the last two

years really informing my spiritual path it’s really just going through the direct experience and being fully there with the emotions and energies that are there all right what do you mean with direct experience what what is that yeah it’s a i guess it’s kind of like seeing your whole life as a meditative practice where you want to be completely there at the moment something is happening and be completely there with the emotion and energy and thoughts that are happening and and kind of stay in that almost seed of

awareness almost this like third person perspective without being detached with it but having this third person and just being fully there with that what you’re experiencing this very moment and that seeing that what you’re experiencing this very moment is exactly what you need to learn in that very moment is exactly what you need to be with exactly what you need to surrender to and in that way kind of you know informing my growth path informing like oh what’s really present in me or what’s really causing resistance or

what’s really making me sad or what’s really making me happy and then and and fully being with that uh and through that direct experience of just embracing yeah the direct experience whatever it is right in front of you if it’s making a cup of tea or being hit by a train um to be with it even though that would be very hard with it yes how do you do that i have to think about the maybe not the fight club scene in which brad pitt throws uh i think it’s something on the hands of edward norden and he says okay

stay with stay with it and of course you want to go away with your mind you want to leave that place of pain and suffering yeah so how do you do that how do you stay with also the negative emotions or the negative things that are happening negative yeah i don’t honestly i don’t know like continue i think continuously continuously getting better at it i think there’s still like negative emotions that i run away from like and we talked about this earlier as well like loneliness is definitely like a like a negative feeling that that

comes up in me that i can still be like nope not facing this i’m gonna meet some people now um but um yeah i think or at least what really helps me is just this feeling it’s partly a reframing like it’s partly uh oh negative emotions are the are the most incredible like diamonds and gems of of your life and and kind of holding that really far in the back of your mind and just knowing oh this this is apparently something that is it has a deep opportunity and it’s a deep learning and is another gateway to me opening up my highest

potential um for our listeners can you explain why those negative things are the diamonds i think often because they’re that the blockades that are still holding you back from you just expressing yourself fully or they’re they’re the i mean they’re on one side the learning the learning blocks of you understanding what structures you have on your mind or what things what emotions you’re still holding on to from past traumas or from past things so it’s kind of like it’s informing you in hey what’s what’s their what’s still

resisting you what’s still holding you back what do you still need to learn and so by really looking at them and being with them it’s like it’s a i guess yeah going through them and through that slowly letting go of these resistances of of past emotions of hopes for the future or really like you know like really strong ideas that actually kept you boxed in kept you structured kept you in limits because you didn’t want to touch it because it hurts but if you’re able to be with it and move through it

it expands and it opens up and and through that i think your potential as a human expands because you don’t have to come into a situation and get triggered and therefore shut down and not be able to deal with the situation but you can continuously better move into a situation and at that moment in time feel okay i can i can feel into the situation and from a place of clarity i can move with this situation and do something with the situation which then my hope is you can take better informed decisions and

help the evolution of mankind and the planet and help people and and do good and come from a place of love thank you for sharing that the way i interpreted the way you talked about spiritual journeys on the one hand side you have that connection and cultivating that connection in the other hand side you have the which for you is that meditation and the direct experience and on the other inside you have the experience of being a human being and then you also talk about creation so what what does that look like when

you do that from the place of connection how do you go through life then and what does this mean for your creational process yeah it’s a really good question that i’ve been asking myself i think a lot as well and which i think this year uh what the process for me has been in that creation is more process of surrender to kind of saying okay show show me what show me what i need to do um and so for that it’s it’s been really trying to let go i what i really like is kind of this like open mind open heart and then open will and

i really got it in my head like the beginning of this year is like okay the last thing i really want to open up to is is my will because there’s always this like you know there’s all these underlying reasons that you want to get to things but what what if you can what if you can open up you know everyone knows how to oh i think a lot of people know how to open their mind or their heart but it’s like when can you open up to your will to say i don’t need to do one specific thing or not i don’t have to create this or do

this and i know i felt like it was really important for me to go through that kind of presencing process of saying okay i’m gonna start from a complete place of openness and then from there start getting informed and i think then i don’t know what what i’m currently in is this very intuitive process uh where kind of follow the energy i just feel this feels very good this is going well and it just i don’t know it’s like uh it doesn’t it almost doesn’t even have a very direct this is exactly where i need to go or

this is like it has much more of kind of a like everyday flowing sensation of okay this feels really good okay let’s go do this okay more of this and then i don’t know and but also like just very beautiful kind of synchronistic moments of people coming to me and just saying hey let’s do this or let’s build this or let’s create this and i don’t know it’s i find it quite hard to like put concrete words to it like it’s like uh because right now it’s such a flow that’s kind of just going and feels very

right like it feels very beautiful for me and like so i guess yeah i think the best way i i would describe it is kind of once again using that your direct experience to inform you and from a place of clarity like let your direct experience inform you of okay this this is how i’m gonna do things and these things you know feel good from like a intuitive sense not purely from kind of like a desire or preference sense but really from a this feels good so you follow what feels good that is your new will satisfies yeah

it’s i follow the energy so it’s not like purely it feels good sometimes there’s a lot of energy on something that feels really bad but you feel like or what would be determined as negative or something but you feel there’s energy there and this needs to be said you know you have a difficult conversation and you feel this needs to be said but you everything inside you says don’t say this don’t say this don’t say this but there’s so much energy there it just feels like yeah you need to speak your truth at this very

moment in time so it’s not like purely like looking for ecstasy experiences but it’s really following i don’t know following your own truth following your own intuition following your own energy of and how would you describe that feeling of that experience of energy what do you feel then yeah i mean i i mostly feel a lot kind of around my heart and here in my lower stomach um i think i’ve developed a lot of awareness around these areas so i i don’t know i just feel like a tingling sensation or a buzzing sensation or

kind of like an opening of my heart or like a like it it comes from really like d deep down here often like it’s really like and i don’t know i think often what describes it as well as kind of a lightness like it feels like like it like you you’re feeling enlightened or you’re feeling like you’re feeling a certain lightness way that you’re feeling ah yes like it’s like oh and there’s this passion and motivation but i definitely still like for myself i’m definitely still sometimes because i’ve come out of a business of

three years where i really wanted to do well you know but like when i look back at it i see that some of my intrinsic motivations were really like success and showing the world that i would be successful and and i think that’s left kind of this like pain in me that i really feel like oh i don’t want to be doing it from that place anymore like i don’t want to chase success or money because i’ve seen i’ve negatively impacted people because of it even in this just in the slightest sense in the slightest

decision making so i think i’m definitely still in a process of like questioning when is this from like a really intrinsic motivation or when is this actually a motivation because i feel like i’m not enough or there’s a lack there’s a feeling of i’m not enough i need to prove to someone i need to have more friends i need to do this and this and this and therefore i need to you know i’m going to organize this event and that causes a lot of energy in me as well so i’m still dissecting like when is this energy

coming from you know a place of abundance or a place of okay i feel clear and i feel good and this is really what needs to be created to i’m creating something from actually a motivation that i am not even aware about that has you know created a pattern in my life by which i get fulfillment or fill up this lack through certain activity um and so i’m still really in the dissecting process i don’t know so hard it’s so hard yeah i’m like i don’t know what what is what is your like do you have do you have a very clear like

like split way where you feel like oh this is really one i know i’m tuned in and this is when i know this is from like another intrinsic motivation or a past like pattern that’s playing up i think for me it’s most of the time more of a physical experience like i can sense when i’m going more into my head so it’s not that i’m more in the thinking mode but i’m more of my awareness is here and then for me it feels like no that is this cannot be right and this is kind of a wave pattern so sometimes

there are days or sometimes even weeks that i realize oh [ __ ] yeah i’m i’ve been living in this space more than in in this space in which like you explain it’s it feels lighter and then there’s just the knowing and the flow i realized yesterday i i i this weekend i said okay uh increase my meditation time because i’ve looking back on the last couple of weeks i feel like but it was it wasn’t more superficial life than i’m used to in the last year or years like i’ve been here more and and now i sense ah okay i’m i’m going

back to to the center of it and then i feel that my decision making changed as well but still i think when you’ve done some groundwork and i think i’ve been doing some ground work in the last few years then there’s still some basis of knowing decision making so also in the last few weeks i do feel that my intuition was not gone it was still alive and i could still i could still it still felt right when it comes to the major decisions yeah um and at the same time i know i can do far better yeah uh when i have my uh circumstances

right um yeah what what the thought you triggered in me now as well as like i guess it’s also a continuous learning of better being able to differentiate that you know maybe at this moment in time like you’re you’re better at able to see oh i’ve really come to my mind so i almost that is a practice in itself as well to inform your practice which is like oh that i’ve apparently really gotten stuck in my head yeah i have that when you i don’t know if after this experience but for a few days i didn’t do my daily practice that much

then it’s like agony like it’s almost like i’m getting a headache and everything starts to feel uh feel shitty like and then i think well but this is not how i felt 10 years ago when i didn’t do this this is not the normal state of any other person why is it like it’s backfiring so hard then do you know why that is yeah i i don’t know why that is but i definitely i can see myself in it i think i think what what is also like what what i experienced in that is like i think you’re just more aware of how big the

difference is you know like it’s more like you you feel an awareness of oh i can be living in this state which is like very aligned and and alive and then you feel like you’re completely on the other spectrum where i feel like hurried and i feel like like the world is too much and it’s overwhelming and it’s like there’s all these negative and fear driven decisions like but i think but then you you’re still aware of it so you have that grounding and you’re still seeing that and you’re like oh my god that is like

i guess far from me living my truth or far from me like living in my completed life stage or from like a place of clarity so it’s like i think it’s an awareness of like how how big the difference is like and i’m already starting to notice it now in like conversations you know like i’ll have one conversation and and i’ll also like my energy level will drop or like something something is triggered in me and right away i’m like oh i like i can notice myself it’s just in one conversation like dropping dropping down and apparently

then there is something i need to work on or there’s something i still need to work with to like surrender to that moment or that conversation or the difference in opinion in whatever there is but yeah it’s so like it’s so noticeable now that it’s like painful to be through the process and you’re like oh and you know you know like like you almost feel like oh i was just there and now i’m here and i want to be there and you have to let that go again like it’s like it’s almost annoying but still worth it

but still worth it it’s worth it endlessly because i i feel endlessly you’re breaking through like and you’re always like able to handle more responsibility able to open up further to your potential able to feel more love and and openness and connectedness and so every time it’s it’s worth it and i think over time it develops more of an unconditionality to it you know so it’s like also when you feel really down there’s still some unconditionality of there’s still some wave of love underneath it and still some wave

of acceptance and still some like you know so there’s the holding space becomes more unconditional over time can you tap into what what the next level for yourself is in this process i’m playing i’m playing with with a thought right now which i was strengthened by by a book yesterday called unfettered soul um playing with this thought of like devoting yourself to unconditional happiness or like devoting yourself to like complete aliveness uh and playing with this idea of like is it really like is it really not just

a choice at the end of the day like can can i can i make the choice to live joyously even in my most down moments like can i make the choice to live lightly even in the most overwhelming of times can i you know can i consciously dedicate myself to that and make that choice fully to actually have that vibrating sense of aliveness always there even in the in in kind of what you would see as the most negative of times or the darkest at times and is there can i like deeply on a like a deep resounding level

like say yes you know like say yes to the whole of it and and be with it kind of joyously like i don’t know i’m i’m really playing with the idea and the last few days i’ve been in that state so like no i have a feeling oh yeah it’s possible but like but right last few days nothing has hit like come on my doorstep and just slap me in my face so it’s been it’s been fine to feel that the last few days but like it’s a it’s a question and how does it work for you generally like now you’re playing around with the

question and you experience that you are there but then is there a certain point in time you make the choice consciously like okay i’m going all in on feeling that level of joy all the time or is it just happening i think i think it’s just happening but you’re but you’re making the choice as well but it’s just happening but i think you’re also you’re learning through direct experience that it is possible you know like so you have some feedback loops which you have some feedback loops and they become stronger

and you get tested even harder and then you then you overcome the test and you grow in resilience and you’re like yes like i can fully be with that all right and you know and i think i think if you’re able to stay in that this is an opportunity i guess mindset or like feeling or like feeling of potential then any test can be another test to grow your conviction almost or to grow your feeling of yes this like i can live completely joyous like i can live joyously even with negativity i can feel lightness even with the most

existential dread that i experience and it’s allowed to be there because i’m here like and i’m here anyway and i’m here anyway in this human form so i might as [ __ ] well like i might as well just i might as well see how what i can i can make the best out of it and like you know create beautiful things and like experience life joyously in between this time of birth and death that is guaranteed to all of us you know it’s like we’re all we’re all guaranteed this birth and death cycle and this time in between

how did you so you explained when you were 16 that you went to this um gathering and things started to change for you yeah when you look at this from a social perspective you mentioned that your friends were drinking beer and you were doing the chanting but did you encounter like-minded people right right away that were of your own age and how did how did it go the years after until now no i didn’t at the beginning encounter like-minded people of my own age so at the start it was really like i befriended like-minded people of like 50

years old and then over time i think at university as well i met people who who really had like who are really stepping into the same kind of open perceptiveness of just wanting to discover the world and like learn about its concept and just this continuous openness and i think those people i’ve together just been on a journey with and every time a new layer has kind of unfolded so it’s it’s quite nice i think that because this process has been quite gradual for me it hasn’t been like a very like

renouncement you know it hasn’t been like oh i’m renouncing my old world and my old friends and now it’s been quite like a my world around me has kind of like moved with me and kind of being like okay seekers in this process okay some of the things he’s doing is really weird and then you know and but then sometimes being like oh that’s actually really interesting uh let me come along with that part and then so it’s kind of been like i don’t know it feels like it’s been integrated quite nice um but yeah i i’ve always i think been

searching for like a community and i still have it i i guess still like a dream or a need for like a community like i’ve always had this idea of living with a group of i don’t know 10 or 15 people like in bali or here or like and in a house together but where there’s a group of people who are really really open in discovering their potential and together we go on that path and we put in practices and we help each other and we remind each other and we you know we strengthen each other every day because

you know sometimes you go to events and you can feel that energy and you or you can be together with those friends and you feel you feel the upliftment and the energy that comes from that and you feel the collective kind of vortex that you’re together growing and then you get pulled out of the events and you get put into everyday life which is also the best best of challenges but it’s just like there’s still curiosity like can you surround yourself with that group of people that there’s just a like a really strong

growing vortex and really like the boundaries of what like what seems limited first like start like disappearing at like a rapid rate and like an increasing rate like i’m i’m still wondering if you’re able to step into that energy with a group of people and and really keep feeding each other and keep looking at whatever is inside of you and go like i feel like there’s some like something crazy could happen and why is it not there yet that community around you yeah i don’t know i think as like i think i have the friend groups and the

people around me that that that support this kind of you know feeling but it hasn’t yet manifested into like a house where it’s like a full-time commitment to like endless potential you know and i don’t know like i think it just it’s not supposed to be there yet like i think it will come but i i also don’t feel like a strong need of like i need to force it or it needs to be there but i feel like it will come if it needs to be there it will be created um that’s what i love about you how seamlessly

easily that is for you to just say okay let’s see what happens and what life will bring me like in the beginning of this year you shared when we met for the first time you you shared that you were well you’re going out of your company i think you’re still a shareholder but not running it anymore and you said okay this year i don’t know which which you use but it’s about giving space and being in the present moment and just see what’s going to unfold like okay that’s so extraordinary that you can create for yourself this space

and then have the trust to and not the eagerness to start wanting something like you’re describing it just now um but it seems to be a natural talent of yours to just it’s almost like a game yeah how does it feel to you yeah it feels it feels like there’s definitely some naturally to it and like some of it comes beautifully but like i think since we had that first conversation there was definitely a moment in time that i went like i was really like i was trying to open up i was like take on no project take on nothing just

let it go like really like i was really like i want to let go everything like i want to like really let go and not have any willingness or any feeling of having to do anything and there was definitely a moment that i like i felt like i touched depression like i i and like there’s like two moments that i felt like i have i feel no reason for existence and i also don’t feel positive about what what might emerge you know and that i was really like in like and how was it for you it was quite it was quite painful like i

remember just like a really deep existential dread like i remember laying in my bed and just looking around and just being like this is all made up and i don’t even know why i’m here and like this is so confusing and the world is in a in a mess and people are hating each other and like really like taking these big worldly events that were happening and like making them myself making them putting them into myself and then yeah i don’t know you know and then also you get this feeling of like i realize i personalized like

big events so that i didn’t have to face myself like i i i actually just felt really crap or i just didn’t have you know much direction which was what exactly what i was looking for but the feeling of like dread or pain that was within me i was projecting out into the world and being like oh the whole world is like is [ __ ] and like corona and like wars and this and people hating and polarization and politics and and so i was making it like i was making like nothing could be done about it as well you know like when

when you feel that there’s an internal pain inside of you that’s so big it’s very easy step to start judging things outside of you or or putting it on things outside of you and i often then take the world which then also makes it really like an like and you can’t start on the task of like saving the whole world right so then you just end up feeling really existential and really crappy and really like kind of like like hopeless so you like from your own dread you take on this big thing and it was that it was also a

beautiful process of realizing that and i’m because i’m become huge like i’ve studied in in delft i come from this very like very conceptual framework you know i’m like i like really like analytic analyzing things and then conceptual framework in it and so i like what happens really fast with me is like i experience something and then i throw it on world scale like i’m like oh so this is how the world works that i did a conceptual framework like and i build all these blocks and so it’s also since that deep feeling of kind of

almost like touching a depression is like understanding as well that i i no longer have to take these world things and make them my own and they’re more just a reflection of what my internal state is like and then if i know if i feel in a loving and light internal state then the world is a beautiful place and we’re going in a beautiful direction you know so also that’s been i think we’re really big learning this year is really not taking things outside of me and especially not the world at large

for the reason of my like feeling of dread or feeling of sadness or so how did you get out of that darker state at first at first i i think i just uh well i really don’t think what that helps me always is just talking about it so i think what helped me at that moment in time was just like vocalizing like really how i felt and really just saying to someone like i feel really crap like i really don’t feel like i feel very existential i feel this this and this and then and thereby you acknowledged it

truly acknowledge it for yourself yeah yeah and then you get a mirror from outside as well who’s who helps you recognize kind of your blind spots or like your cognitive like conceptualization frameworks that you’ve used to come to that conclusion of however the world works you know and so then i was getting mirrored from the outside of like okay you’re taking on world issues and and making them yourself and that then helped me be like okay yeah i am doing that and that helped me to actually be with this pain

uh and just let it be my own thing which made it much more tangible and made it more like oh okay okay just have to relax into it be with it surrender into it and give it some space and then i think slowly as well i was i was starting to take on you know little activities and little projects as well i was just like okay good i’ve i’ve touched something and i’ve i’ve given it some space and i’ve been with it and now i can it’s kind of like you know like a dark night of the soul like you have to like

you have to go through it and be with it and then slowly i created more space for creation as well and taking on things and it was also a realization of i was forcing myself like to go as deep as possible so it was also kind of like a feeling of okay actually it’s allowed to be balanced and i’m allowed to like learn and and and live and kind of it’s allowed to be imbalanced like i’m allowed to learn as well from just you know practical experience i don’t have to throw myself into complete like seclusion or like

doing complete meditation and doing nothing to learn life or learn what is really there but it was just such a strong conviction of i don’t want to make the same mistakes i don’t want to do wrong to other people i don’t want to do the wrong thing and i got into this really deep like feeling if i don’t know the truth like i don’t i don’t know i don’t know what’s true anymore and when you don’t know what’s true then what is good or bad and so what is good informed decision what is actually doing good

for people and i just you know i also lost myself completely in that extensional loophole of like what is good or bad and if i really want to do good what what is good like that was also like part of that so what is now then giving you the answers to what is good is it just again following follow the energy yeah without having a conviction about it i think it’s it’s this like it’s this like resounding yes idea that it’s um i think what really helped me was kind of like a non-duality as well or like

the feeling of like something i am completely zigger and i’m completely not seeker like i’m i am the world is solved as it is and the world is completely unresolved as it is like feeling like oh two complete opposing opposites can be there at the same time and so therefore on a conceptual level there like there is no truth or like we don’t hold some kind of you know like absolute truth but everything is allowed to be there and like two things that seem truly opposing completely opposing um can both exist at the same time

uh um so from conceptual level that really that really helped me because i was really like okay completely opposing things couldn’t sit so then the only thing that remains is for me to say complete yes to that what is in front of me and say complete yes to i love the color black and i love the color or the color white is my favorite color and the color black’s my favorite color and both of you yes both completely and this i think that kind of yes helped me more than tap into and make it really a body

more of a like body thing where it’s really like oh this is what feels good for me and that then coming back to the energy and really feeling like oh yeah and you know knowing like the intention and the energy is set there to do good and i know when i’m coming from like a clear place and coming from a place of love that the intention there is always good and you know something that i do might trigger a person or make a person feel bad or or do something in the world but that that’s okay as well um

yeah it’s okay it’s part of life it’s part of life and it’s also part of our collective learning process like you know it’s like there’s there’s some if i trigger you and and you’re able to take that as your own thing and then learn from it it’s it’s like a beautiful it’s like we collectively need to learn from the things that we that we do with each other so it’s also not a bad thing like if you trigger if if my intention was there to be loving and i take the time to really consider my own decisions and and follow my own energy

then my hope is to give other people that energy and and make them feel loved um but even sometimes when you try and love someone really well they get triggered by that you know like it’s and and and i guess that’s okay that’s part of it now is it for you to um well in the last few years you’ve built a successful business and then you’ve been doing nothing for a while and i believe now you’re having well you feel where the energy is going and you’re participating in several projects or things that are going on yeah

how is it to not be focused on that one business but just go with the flow because i think in essence you are someone who wants to manifest something you create you are the entrepreneur yeah how what is what is the difference for you and where do you see it going in the long run yeah it feels really good to be honest um because right now it feels very light like it doesn’t you know like i think when you have a business really quickly you can kind of build this whole conceptual framework around it of oh it

needs to be like this and it needs to be like this and it has to happen this i need to be professional and the website needs to be nice and this and this and this and then you put all the like this load of expectations that you either get from yourself or from cultural background or from your parents on like what a what a business needs to be or like a successful or fully functioning business so it’s really nice to kind of not step fully into this definition of oh this needs to be a business or

i you know i need to be the co-founder of this or it needs to be like it’s quite nice as well to like work on projects where breathe is is is really becoming like the main like project and driving force but it’s really nice to step into it lightly and kind of um it feels like a lot more is allowed to shift and shape as it wants you know it’s not like i have this idea and i need to force it in this direction and it needs to be like this it can be more like okay i play this certain role here right now

and that’s beautiful but it’s also okay if that comes to an end and then i play this role here and that something gets created and it’s also okay if it comes to an end or if i’m not most serving anymore to that or that role and kind of i don’t know that yeah i guess that releasing a little bit of of of your ego of your idea of this success and this is what you should be doing and this is how you should be like this is what a business should look like creates much more yeah openness to what really needs to be

there and what is your like greatest offering to it like how you can best give yourself to what is what is there uh so i’ve really i’m really i’m really enjoying it at this present moment and i want to like i have an intention to really keep holding that lightness you know even if i’m like i commit myself full-time to breathe uh to keep holding that lightness of oh it may be there and it may not be there and i may fulfill a role really well and maybe at a certain point not and you know like that it can just

it can and it can take the form that it needs rather than the form that i i project onto it i don’t know how does that feel for you in terms of awake origins like what what process are you in right now in terms of how how you shape a business or how you look at what a business should be or conceptualize it or like and also that dynamic between vision and being in this moment i think um i think i tend to have a feeling or where things are going in a long in the long run which then my mind is also playing a role in it

like it’s says okay we’re going to be present in over 100 countries in five to ten years from now et cetera et cetera which i think is okay like it and it makes the vision more concrete and it might not be totally right but it helps to give that sense of direction and i do i really try to sense in the moment what the next thing is that wants to happen but i i do have a major pitfall and that is that i um enjoy doing many things at the same time so then then it feels right probably more on the the ego level just to enjoy the process

of creation so for example well we have origins you have the world consciousness forum and there is resonance which is more about music and nature and meditational practices and i and bo and all of these are very different for me and in the end they’re all about the same assets it’s about raising a level of consciousness of awareness but i do enjoy them a lot and once in a while for me i hit my head like boom okay something is not working or it’s too much or what do i need to get out of my agenda

at this point in time so i do think i’ve all the time i’ve got a sense of where things are going um but i want to go too fast that’s that’s a big problem that i keep running into and then once in a while boom there’s a knowing again okay this is the focus for the next three months or maybe even a year and let the rest um just go for now or maybe on a very low low level but i don’t think well the total openness that you can have i think i can have more of it like getting out of my mind made projections of where i want to go and

just and i do sense in the moment but i think i can do it more but for me it remains the question always is okay but you do if you set your energy on where things can be going in the long run the universe will help to create it if it’s coming from a place of presence and that dynamic when it comes to okay what setting the energy and the intention at the same time keep feeling in the present moment that’s that’s that keeps being an interesting process for me and sometimes it’s more over there sometimes here and then i’m hitting my

head again yeah yeah i can find it very difficult yeah it is yeah the setting of like something even tangible i mean what you just said was like setting the energy for the future and the energy for now which makes me think of oh they can be the same right like you have like an intention or an energy that is the future but that you hold now and therefore is is created in the future and if it’s only an energy or if it’s only like an intention then i guess it doesn’t have very specific forms it’s like

manifesting that energy into creation in whatever form that fits best to that energy which could be love or like whatever you know um but yeah for me it’s also hard when you’re really like concretely like saying okay this is going to be a business and yeah we want to expand to this and this and this country and do this and this and this like it comes very hard to see you know how much should i let go how much should i set a vision because it’s it can be very powerful to be like this is where we’re going and this is

where practically how it’s going to be created yeah and the same thing with i think i used to feel like okay always let your excitement decide and um so if i feel very excited about something that’s the way to go but then i don’t do my homework really well like what i don’t what doesn’t give me energy is taking care of the whole back office having all the processes in place etc etc i think that’s a recent thing that um that i’ve learned okay try to make that into a meditative meditative process

like be with it do what is needed it might be not the most exciting thing um but remain in the present moment while you’re doing it and then it’s totally fine and but it’s still hard like it’s um because i do believe that the majority of the time that you create it can be something that you really love and like to do but sometimes there’s and you notice but there’s a stage growing a project or a company in which you need to do something which is not your action yeah i mean as you say that’s where i think the biggest kind of

spiritual like that’s the biggest to stay in flow or to like stay present with that that can be incredible or that can be like a really valuable learning yeah i guess so for you at this moment not the not the long-term vision where you want things to go it’s just following the energy or just it’s following the energy yeah it’s it’s it’s following the energy i think at this at this moment in time and i think once the right time will come it will it can translate into a vision which then translates into very practical

steps but right now it’s really uh this feels good and so i’m going to do a bit more of this yeah so so what do you feel is um the essence of what you have to bring to the world or bring to the world what is when you use a word like purpose what is it such a nice um my pleasure i i i it’s um it’s a it’s a it’s a it’s a discovering i’m first of all i feel it’s continuously changing like it’s a it’s it’s a discovering thing i think in the end it comes down to like how to love loving and loving in the best way

possible just like a discovery of like how to love in the best way possible which translates into everything like translates into your action your relationships you’re really practical like just what you’re doing like and how how to do that with with with a loving energy uh and with a sense of appreciation for and love for the thing that you’re creating or the person that you’re beholding or um yeah and i think more practically really bringing together people like i i i’ve always felt a lot of energy

around bringing together people like organizing events creating communities and and so that’s right now how it manifests more more kind of practically but yeah i think on a on a deeper sense it’s just around the world love and also just learning in this life how to love in the best best possible way um yeah beautiful you i’m i’m very i’m quite curious now how you would describe that in one sentence that’s impossible and then it’s the essence of what i have to bring to the world yeah well like you said i think it’s always

it’s changing like purpose is not something that is set in stones as soon as you set it in stone it’s gone it’s it’s nothing anymore it’s just mind um and i feel that in the last couple of years as soon as i thought i have it then it’s three months later it’s something else or it’s it’s a little bit different or it’s deeper or lighter it can change in many ways but i’m i feel like i’m getting more clarity now that it is about finding out for myself how to truly create from the inside out to understand that process better and to be

to do it better and i feel that i have moments in which i am spot on like there’s one-on-one this is inside out and sometimes there are moments which i feel now this is not it so i’m still learning but i think while i’m learning um also sharing this with the outside world also my own process but like we’re discussing now share this share our own journey with the outside world and well in my case i think i’m also a connector and community builder and i create programs of course how to bring those creators together and with

those learnings that we all have start to co-create and uh go next level on their journey so it yeah i think when it’s the essence it’s about well sharing my own journey as a well as a psychologist and an entrepreneur something like that yeah it’s beautiful i mean you do that extremely well and you create things like this like it’s it’s beautiful to see yeah right away i think of the the lack of time i have to well she had this in the beginning of this year we were in the retreat together in which i shared with my one of my

limiting beliefs is that i always have a lack of time so i’ve been working this with this this year to create that abundance of time yeah but when it comes together it’s like magic and more and more i i do realize that all my the different things i’m involved in it’s just the same thing yeah and then you can so seamlessly integrate them and work with it yeah um it’s just effortless yeah yeah and maybe time stands almost still like i feel like moments i’ve seen you like creating from inside out like it feels more like almost even

timeless moments like you know it’s like nothing else has to happen in the moment except for that yeah yeah now and i started to love that also i think when you’ve met you you spoke to me and you would have met me 10 years ago and um you would have told me that i would be guiding groups or giving keynotes or whatever i would say holy [ __ ] i’m not that person like i was i always saw myself some one on the background and i really started to enjoy the last couple of years and now when i have to do

a retreat or an event and [Music] i feel i can feel two that two weeks with it i think you have the same thing like it’s such a challenge to do something in just two hours or just one day and you know right away what you cannot be doing and what the the participants are missing out on because there is no more time like it’s so um so effortless to have create something that can really have a big impact yeah so that’s what i’m enjoying that i’m sinking into that more i’m already looking forward to when i do my homework

and start well journeying on and deepening my own unconsciousness well the next levels of these days so more even more magical of course like then uh yeah it’s going to be awesome it is the same thing with you of course yeah it’s only building on itself like it feels like it’s just a building energy yeah and it only it’s going somewhere beautiful like and all the time i feel like this like oh i want to be surprised like almost like i’m so surprised or enthusiastic about what’s going to come next like how does

how’s it going to look because it’s going to be cool but i have no idea how but it’s going to be cool nice so so what you’ve been talking about the world before and all the problems that are happening yeah how do you look at it right now what do you see what do you think is happening hmm i i think i think at this moment in time i’m kind of like i’m i’m kind of like i’m this i’ve distanced myself from news quite a bit so like i wouldn’t say like from a trend perspective i’m really like tuned in or something but from just like

my own experience which i think is often a direct reflection of reality um i feel it’s beautiful like it’s like a i have a sense of there’s an awakening process taking place and it’s and it’s only strengthening and i think we as humans are are learning to go beyond where we have been before in our consciousness but also in our organizational structures and in the way that we run business and society even if it’s not called consciousness or spirituality or whatever it’s like it’s taking on the next level of

organizational principles um which is like going to be embedded in society at a depth because there’s more wisdom and more intelligence and more collective wisdom building um so yeah i feel i feel incredible like i feel like it’s i feel like if i feel we’re going to turn around global warming uh i feel we’re going to yeah you’re positive about that yeah i think we’re going to awake as as as a species i think business is going to play a completely new role in the future i think humans as individuals are

are going to i think a lot of cultural shifts are going to take place um which are very positive um that’s how i’m how i am experiencing it at this moment yeah and and what would you tell the people who well who are following the mainstream media on a daily basis and listen to you saying this and they say well but how how wrong can you be this is not what’s happening right now yeah i i think they’re they’re entitled to their to their opinion about it and obviously you know there’s once again from a non

also almost non-dual perspective there’s like very good arguments to be said on both sides like on on both sides of like we’re going on an upwards trajectory or we’re like going to crash and burn right yeah and i don’t know i mean i don’t know exactly where we’re gonna go but i know that the most important thing is for me to be with my own energy and to to nourish my own energy and my own being and let that have a loving or positive effect on the world in whatever way that will manifest in my life

that’s the only thing i can do like the only thing i can take care of is my my own thing and then see what you know obviously practically i can how i can create that in the world and like spread spread love to some extent um but yeah so i think i’ve also accepted if if we go for a global catastrophe like i’ve also accepted the idea of global warming like going disastrously or a nuclear war happening like it’s also like if that is gonna happen that is gonna happen i’m not gonna put my energy and

intention into making that happen but and i’m gonna put my energy and intention into like creating love and taking good care of my own energy and then and hopefully spreading that to other people and inspiring them or or creating beautiful like manifestations but yeah it’s also not in my control like it’s it’s not in my control where the whole world goes um only thing i guess that is only a tiny little bit in my control is this like what i do with this this this physical form i’m in and this energy that’s playing in me and

what i do with that so like it’s it’s a that’s the only thing i can do you know that’s me doing my best at any time and yeah well we’ll see how the re how the rest goes what what what do you do for pure enjoyment so when you’re not working on yourself and on the next level or your thoughts about the world what what is just for enjoyment and nothing else is there something in your life well like i’ve i feel i feel like i’ve recently come to this feeling of everything is my spiritual work so even like me doing something out of

pure enjoyment is like my spiritual path and my spiritual work so it’s all part of my work and there’s also no like business work or personal work it’s all just part of my work yeah but work in like a positive sense not in like a draining sense um but what i love doing is is dancing love dancing i love being with people i love just being with people like i’m such a people person i just love being with someone in a conversation and i love just dancing like i would say i love playing football as well but i haven’t played football in a

while so that hasn’t really happened but yeah i think mostly when i’m in pure enjoyment i’m dancing or i’m talking with people and it’s in the whole corona thing is that influencing your those moments can you dance currently besides yourself we i can’t dance currently ecstatic dance is still continuing and still being organized and it was being organized in parks for a while as well so that’s yeah that’s going on but yeah definitely at the start of corona when we went into more of a quarantine situation i definitely had a little like

social dip that i was like uh okay that all coincided with me like in this process of i want to go deeper into myself so because i remember having you on the phone i think you were in a house in nature in the middle of nowhere just with yourself right yeah well i was there with my two little brothers but it was they’re like mostly going inwards and being with the process of myself it’s been a cool year it’s so great that you’re saying that yeah it’s very it’s yeah i love the process but the frustrations

in it as well yeah definitely and but i think challenges like as event organizers and leaders i organized this 65-person event uh and you have to like you have to stand so you have to really go through something like you have to stand even stronger you have to be even like stronger of your conviction and also like people would go up to me being like oh this is so irresponsible that you’re organizing this right and then my reaction after a while before first i was like oh well okay but after a while would be i’m taking

the greatest responsibility because i’m taking responsibility to under these conditions respecting the government rules to create a space where we keep connecting and we keep innovating as humans to understand how we’re going to build this world together you know this is not a process of running and hiding this is a process of meeting each other and meeting what is there and being fully with it and co-creating whatever is supposed to be there next yeah i love how you’re saying that and that’s the biggest responsibility of

people like like us i guess who love bringing together people it’s the biggest responsibility because it’s even tougher and you have to be even more resilient because you get more critics but it’s like to build whatever world we want to be in we need to be in connection to solve the coronavirus we need to be in connection to innovate whatever we want to innovate on we need we need we need to stay together we need to keep building ideas you know it’s it’s not a complete process of retraction like

yeah once in a while when i organize something and some place someone is critical on it i think like okay should i not be doing this then well keeping to the rules et cetera et cetera but what you’re saying now this yeah this is a little pet on the back for myself yeah you’re so right this is what’s needed we need more exactly creative ways to do it yeah as soon as we agree upon okay let’s not meet anymore then we’re [ __ ] yeah yeah we need to like and we can keep meeting but under right we can

i i feel respect as well for okay you know we’ll find we’ll find a way together with multiple stakeholders and the government as well and and we’ll keep one and a half meter distance but let’s keep putting ourselves out there you know like uh it’s it’s our responsibility it’s our responsibility to almost be creative to be with what what is and to keep evolving together it’s great that you’re doing that likewise earlier i talked to one of your co-founders at breathe breathe right yeah breathe he

shared with us also the process of the name giving and also the i shared with me how that you played a role in it yeah um can you share a little bit about what brief is going to be about and what your part in it is um yes i think on a very very macro skill breathe is about really looking at what is what is going to be the new role of of business like what role is business currently playing which can be seen as a very profit maximizing place for shareholders to gain value and obviously a lot of different

roles as well but um like the end goal of business um and to seeing how yeah from almost kind of a financial from the financial world um what role we can play in making business um something for good um something that does good and that has a purpose and that looks at the stakeholders and society and and the planet and considers all those in its very day-to-day decision making it’s something like comes down to something really practical it comes down to humans sitting in like a meeting room and saying we’re going to

make this decision considering multiple stakeholders and considering what what our company wants to bring to the world um and my role in that is still also like explorative like it’s it’s still an explorative phase i i think a big part of it right now is kind of community and communications um and brand and things like that but it’s also for me it’s still an explorative process um what role i’m gonna play in it and yeah how it best fits and like how i can best be of service to the team and and to breathe into its development

so yeah it’s i don’t know as well it can go many ways can go many ways yeah yeah it’s it’s it’s it’s such a it’s such it’s still emerging you know the whole the whole company is still emerging so it’s still like there’s so much to surface still and there’s so much still to be defined or created so it’s it’s uh what is your i’m thinking because you’re exploring i think you go through life as an explorer especially right now this year it’s very explorative what is then your basis what’s what does feel like your

starting point or your place where you feel at home which gives you the comfort and the the stability to do all that exploration i think the basis is like a feeling of self-worth uh i think i’ve been very lucky in this lifetime to kind of have like a building like a continuous like building momentum of of self-worth in a way of just feeling like hey i’m i in general i am good enough i am lovable i am like i’m doing like i’m doing things that matter or i don’t like i don’t know just this feeling of like hey

yeah this this is good so i think what really helps me is it just quite little doubt creeps in between the moment that i have an idea and that the idea is created it’s quite like a it’s quite like a process that just goes oh i did really resonate really good idea create great and oh good go whoa nice um so i think i think just yeah i guess that within myself is really the home and then i mean i’m incredibly lucky as well with like my family upbringing with the incredible privilege that i come from

the like friend group that i have around me so like my life in its most like in its most practical human form is like very stable and it’s very like insured and there’s a lot of safety nets and there’s a lot of like things i can trust on so it’s like i’m really standing on like pillars of greatness already from which i can like go the next level you know and sometimes i over feel this responsibility of taking this and and you know build really building on that and really taking it to the next level um yeah so

what do you feel then it has to go somewhere yeah impactful or whatever um yeah i think this feeling of oh my god i have this incredible privilege oh my god i have these all these opportunities i have all these uh connections all these possibilities and now it’s up to me to like solve something in the world you know to make some to really do something in the world i’ve been given all these gifts and now it’s really my responsibility to do that and then your best moment you might enjoy the feeling and in

the worst moments it’s a contracting feeling and what does it do then yeah there’s there’s moments that it’s a contracting feeling but i haven’t felt that in quite a while to be honest like it it was quite a while like this i think also with my last company was this bearing feeling of like oh okay this needs to be successful and i just really need to make this something big in the world and kind of then like forcing yourself into this idea of how something should be and right now it feels much more like no

i i right now i really feel it’s already okay i have a stable basis i’m allowed to rest on that as well and then see what i from there really want to create and how i can best put my energy out into the world so it has much more stability now you seem to reflect on yourself quite a lot like you are aware of many of your thoughts and feelings and patterns does that happen is is that process happening in the moment or do you have like a daily reflection moment or maybe weekly or how does it work for you um yeah it’s

it’s i think it’s an like every moment thing um but i i do like a daily meditation practice and i take time for journaling and and things like that but it’s and it’s more like a daily journaling yeah a weekly i would say um but it’s for me the biggest method is actually communication like it’s like like dialogue with other people like i i gain the most insight from my uh conversations with other people um create the most insight the most mere possibility to get something mirrored back to me um i think the most comes from that and

that’s also what i tap into so much like i i have that’s going on on a continuous basis it’s going on a continuous basis and it’s also like if i feel something inside of me that needs to be spoken i speak about it right away so it’s really like oh i feel vulnerable oh i feel sad oh and you know i’m i very quickly the person that needs to be in front of me becomes in front of me and and i speak those words and and then the reflection process can start um but it’s like now that you’re saying it it’s also

like it’s alright it’s always a reminder for me to not too much go into it and do it from a place of doubt you know there’s some there’s definitely when you like when coming out of my company like the end of last year december there was definitely moments that i i felt like oh i’m not doing it right and therefore i need to reflect really hard on myself and like be critical you know and so there’s they’re like i’m always kind of holding that awareness of okay when is this coming from a place of doubt or a

place of like criticism or judgment rather than from a place of like opportunity and and the potential for growth and and potential for discovering you know and do you feel different right now in this year compared to the last few years in which you built that company for example when i look at myself i um the majority of the time i’m creating something which also means you have to work and it’s not all the time the open conversations that you can have when you don’t have to do anything without a result

so um well a lot of my time goes into the entrepreneurial stuff that i have to do yeah so there’s like there’s there’s less time for those conversations that you are referring to yeah do you experience that this year there’s more time for it then yeah yeah i’ve like i’ve felt like limitless time kind of feeling that’s because it’s also just a really different phase like when i was last year my company i had no no time for anything like and so also there was like this building up of like reflective

material that i couldn’t like i never had time for so i think over a three year process three and a half year process there was building up reflection material that was just like okay don’t have time for that right now don’t have time for that right now it’s kind of building up in the back so yeah i think it’s very it’s also very dependent on your face and so how did like because i cannot imagine that you did not do it at all in those three years like it’s too much part of your essence yeah what what what are the ways that

do work for you when you are in the trenches of entrepreneurial life what would you advise me to do to have more of it yeah i think what i’m what i’m learning now really from breathe as well is like doing that with your whole team like making it a practice within your team to just complete like continuously do that so for example we have at the start of every meeting we have a check-in which is just how are you feeling anything withholding you from being present and what’s your intention for this

meeting and this gold like gold i’m absolutely doing it in every like even if i’m meeting with a group of friends i’m now like putting in the check-in because like how are you feeling is just like you connecting with okay what’s actually really going on is there anything withholding you from being present is like all the thoughts and all the ideas that are always running around so it’s actually like a really reflective question because it’s like okay what’s what’s holding you back from being here right now

so that they’re still and then once you speak it out into the room it can be there and then you can presence and you you have a more like good conversation and then yeah your intention for the meeting puts some kind of energy and also makes the meeting more efficient because it’s like you want to get this out of the meeting or that person wants to get this or yeah but yeah that has really helped me that has really reminded me of like you can just put it in there as a business practice that you do with

your colleagues and obviously you have the other things that you can do for yourself like meditating which i never stopped during that period um yeah but it i mean and there’s another thing that i take from uh michael j singer who’s the author of unfettered soul he’s like super strong on like your work is your most spiritual practice you know like every action like every email every email that you sent can be done with a certain energy like and like it’s really seeing how you can make whatever is your

work a spiritual practice you know like if it’s mopping the floor or if it’s like being a dentist or if it’s facilitating a workshop like how can you make it your facility like spiritual practice where you learn from that what is happening and you build awareness on what kind of energy you’re putting into it and you know it’s like that’s so valuable for me like the i really also like splitting the whole idea of like stop splitting the whole idea of like personal and professional work like it just feels like i agree it’s

just me like i’m just living my life and right now i’m doing this and right now i’m doing that and like it’s just as much my work for me to meet with friends as it is to bring together people around breathe or to organize a retreat or to organize an event like it comes same energy all coming from the same energy like all coming from the same willingness or coming from the same openness just really i really like how that is just doesn’t like that line is just fading and it’s and work doesn’t feel like this tough

hard thing that you need to go to and you need to do no it’s like work is just another flow of your life it’s not even work it’s just you doing what needs to get done to create what you what you thought to do together with some people yeah i recognize that i do see in my own life that um i don’t have any normal friends anymore or hardly like friends you just see because they are then friends it’s always part of the whole creational process and maybe i’ve taken it too far i’m not sure but like everyone that i’m as a friend is also

someone that i co-create with or i am being coached or the other way around or um yeah how nice is that i i i feel like you can never take that too far that’s just like okay yeah i feel like i feel like that’s such a it’s friendships are places where you gain something and that person gains something and you have a beautiful interaction and something is created anyway you know in the relationship yeah that’s so true so it’s just you might as well make everything some kind of beautiful creationary process

and you know all friends are just coaches as well i feel and it’s so nice that to fully embrace that and then it can it can really start building like you sounds like you have really as well that whole community around you of people that are just building with you you know it’s really nice how do you inspire yourself next to how life inspires you or the people around you like you apparently you read like the unfettered soul yeah do you read a lot or what what is your what is input for you yeah yeah i i

read quite a bit now um i i listen to a lot of i listen to a lot of books as well so as i was driving over here i was listening listening to a book which was then that it’s all which i’m listening to for the second time because such a great book um buy this book no um but um i think for me still the main the main thing is like communication like that’s the main thing i get inspired by other people like sitting here with you inspires me like my energy has already grown like has doubled in the time that i’ve sit here

sat here and i feel more inspired and light and like i feel now also like kind of this momentum of like i want to like move you know like i want to move into the world or like kind of create or do things so yeah it’s still people i don’t know so often for me it comes back to people as as kind of the reflectionary process or the inspirationary process yeah is it for you something very specific [Music] yeah i think first and foremost is life and what’s happening there and conversations i do i don’t read a lot like

i think i have two books that i’ve been reading the last three or four years which two are those no one i don’t even know the name and about it’s a very small booklet and once in a while like last weekend i was going through it and the other one is um i am that t-h-i-t by uh was not written by nisa gatta maharaja but but someone else wrote down all the things that he kept saying and that’s like it has endless depth like um so once in a while read a chapter and then two years later you read the same

chapter again and it feels like i have not read this before you you read totally different things in it so that’s when it comes to books and i well sometimes i just listen to a podcast or a youtube movie which has something nice to say but it’s it’s not a lot maybe also there it’s when i would have cr create more time for myself and could have been more or maybe i could read more but i don’t feel you must take all your inspiration from somewhere where like what what is the source now if you have less time for that

well i can feel inspired by well i’ve have to two mentors i think you’ve met them or maybe one of them like it’s lawrence and nonna yeah they they coach me and i think the inspiration there is then once in a while the line is being dropped when i have a session which doesn’t do anything at that point in time but then four months later i realized the truth in there and it has been opening up something within myself so it’s more like a seed or inception and that’s then the inspiration which but then i needed space before

um something could come through so then the inspiration is just the connection that i that i have which shines light on something um i’m thinking what else is there because i think you’re right you also have you need other inspiration as well probably just random things that i read or yeah by life and then it’s like you saying then work is a spiritual practice and every moment is a moment of inspiration yeah in spiritual practice yeah yeah but that would be nice to well i create those moments like every

we did last weekend i think i shared it with you like with my girlfriend to create some more structure in again when do we have time for being together or with the family or for for ourselves and now it’s pretty random but i love to be in in nature for multiple days by myself during hike in the mountains i think that that is my biggest inspiration and it’s uh and it’s in a way so easy i was in switzerland last summer and then well with my girlfriend in my uh one and a half year old we were in the mountains on the camping

and then well my girlfriend she was allowed to be gone for a few days in a nice state with my son and the other way around wow but as soon as i’m two or three days out there but everything starts to talk to you like the the mountains and the glaciers and the rivers had a whole story for me and in about myself and my own creation but of course you need to well of course i need a little time to sink into it like i need a few hours at least to truly sink into that process well i found out i had this i think a

half year half a year ago it was the beginning of covet and um i did my morning meditation and once as well was like i’d like to go skateboarding and i never did skateboarding in my whole life so i what searched on the internet and uh i found that there are also access long boards and i never knew what those were but i was really excited about it like i could think of nothing else i need a long board and well in a few days it arrived and i fooled around on it and it was actually quite easy and then every weekend

on a saturday i started longboarding in the forestry area around here doing some meditation and some hiking and just the longboarding which is actually really centric because you have to stay present to not fall off especially when you’re making speed but i think those those are the most joyful yeah hours or days in which i don’t have to do anything just like with my longboard or with a combination of walking and meditating and then it happens yeah then or when i’m drinking my tea on the on the terrace after the hike just being

and then it it happens that’s i think where my biggest inspiration is i’d love to learn more from that as well like i i think you inspire me as well to be more on my own like with me it’s so people bound you know that i feel that there’s even more inspiration to be gained from like just going into nature by myself like that sounds like so daunting to me but that’s exactly why their potential has a lot of energy there you know yeah i think that’s an interesting difference that you are more people focused than and i’m more

on that alone alone part thank you hmm this was nice this was very nice let’s do it again another time yeah let’s see where we are yeah yeah that would be great [Music]