[Music] hi my name is Joel in this episode of unplugged I talk to boardroom adviser and filmmaker though winters inserts for meaning and a new perspective Rove travelled across the world to find the hidden wisdom keepers for five years he resided among various tribes on every continent together with his wife and three children his journey resulted in the awe-inspiring hit movie down-to-earth a movie that touched the hearts of countless people and changed lives I visited Rove at his home near London we

talked about his own personal journey the insights he received from the wisdom keepers he encountered and about how to apply these insights as a leader and entrepreneur I was wondering if you look back at your life so far and you would divide your life in different chapter headings what could be one or two or three maybe TV I thought this is gonna be a easy interview and how many chapters okay well the first chapter is probably up to starting to work education growing up if that’s a chapter I grew up in in Holland studied Business

Economics in Tilburg University and started working in in the corporate world and an international marketing role and so that would probably be the next chapter sort of trying out a career a business career and I was very much a corporate guy I thought I was really the first company I worked for was an usher in in Holland and it was just like a warm bath it was if I look back still one of the most thriving cultures I’ve ever worked in actually witnessed and I was with that company from when I started 200 employees to about 500

employees so it’s a nice size and it was and still that size still felt like one big family and the company was also the most successful in their chain worldwide was the company repressed in 40 countries and so when it was procured by an English company they looked at the stats and said you know there’s something wrong with these spreadsheets and then they realized that we were sort of a different fish with the result that they came to to Holland say you know what what are you guys doing different

and we basically said well we are such brilliant marketeers that we know the products are not so great but we know how to sell them and that’s probably a part of chapter 2 if we’re educators chapter 1 I think a corporate career is chapter 2 which I started already sort of doing my study when I started work for this company and so when we were hired by the English company to come to the head office to basically you know duplicate our success throughout Europe and the rest of the world and that was

chapter to be because chapter to be overseeing the backside of the corporate world working here in the head office in London was was like a snake recall a snake bit and people were just fighting with each other clashing egos and the whole toxic environment as you can sometimes can imagine that happens in the copper world I was exposed to that and in the right in the middle of it so I saw the two extremes basically of the corporate world in chapter 2 home within one company well it was actually a new

company that took over and within months all my colleagues have burned up and disappeared but I stayed not because I loved it because I was fascinated I was fascinated by the whole process of you know a how I was completely incapable of copying any of the success in the and how how for heaven’s sake you know people that were very close to the business the investors were very close to the business didn’t see how toxic the environment was and how you know in meetings is there millions who are just

like thrown in the gutter to save somebody’s face or whatever anyways I was a very learning premature learning experience I love the long in life but after three and a half years I decided this is it and that’s chapter three started and started to set up my own company and I think it was definitely that experience of seeing the two extremes of the corporate spectrum that have brought me to that decision that I thought you know if if this is the reality of the corporate world you know how nice would it be if you can actually

play a part in making turning not-so-healthy and these into healthy entities I also made a decision I was not gonna go for toxic environments because you know I mean if something is that sick I think you just better move on so I decided to work with companies that are relatively healthy but you know really wanted to become a spirited highly spirited company well I think I start to realize how amazing these first years were and how amazing people can can work together and manifest something with relatively you know inferior

material it’s a bit like you know building a football team with average players and winning the World Cup that that was how this complete felt you know we had we had very average products the competition was far better but we’re number one in the market just because you know the the surfaces that we managed to provide and the the connections we were able to make and the engagement we were able to create with with customers so I basically started my my firm in what I said you know cultural cultural development and

that in a couple of years transition very quickly to leadership coaching and leadership development I also started to see how much the two are related you know how a culture is definitely related to the attitude of the leadership I tried the beginning to change cultures from the bottom up but that when it goes so far you know we still have to accept that we are in a in a pyramid model and that if you can’t change the mindset in the boardroom then bottom-up change has limitations so and I I was fascinated with with leadership

from day one I also started to realize what the success really was driving and starting with in that original company and that it was an amazing antic leader who was able to you know to pull people in and let him blossom and grow in their own talents with their own gifts and that is I still think one of the most fascinating things how do people actually work together and what can you do to create an energy field where people can bring in their full selves their whole selves without holding back

and where where it’s a safe place to experiment to explore and not work from a place of fear and so yeah I did that for ten years that’s nice ten ten-year chapters yeah yeah was 30 I started a company and by the time I was 40 I think a new chapter had started because I became a dad starting a family I think that is definitely the beginning of often of a new journey and I think that triggered me to together with my wife to make to really reflect on you know what are the estate’s you contribute to the life of

your children and that actually was a dialogue that didn’t stop we started to look around and say you know how why would we actually bring our children into a school system if we don’t feel that the system is to be trusted you know why would I still continue to work with corporates once I started to see that the corporate system in itself is failing and so in the 10 years of being in boardrooms you know I’ve seen a lot and even though those were in itself healthy companies with great people you could see that at

some stage his system manipulated people to to take decisions that were not necessarily good for them not necessarily good for the people they work for and definitely not good for the bigger picture and that started to hurt more and more so by the age of 40 my wife and I we took a decision to break away from the this world altogether and you know experiment was it a difficult decision no I think we were looking to to change our rhythm of life and we were trying to say you know I mean life goes so quick yo and to stay in the same

groove is not something that we enjoy and with those bigger questions about you know how we can raise these kids and what are we gonna do to to make a difference in the world we said you know we can we can talk about these things we can take out we can take another membership beyond you know the world nature friend and Greenpeace and Amnesty International but you know that that is not enough you know you have to start living your life in a different way and so when we met this clan of Native Americans

and in 2005 we realized that you know there is so much still to learn from people who have a completely different view on life let me say you know why why would we take couple of years out and that is the next chapter so we now in Chapter four right now would you call that your that would I call that yup they’re exploring life on you mmm yeah it was definitely a completely open-ended chapter I mean nine side if you write a book you know you probably rename the chapters so I can rename the chapter now

but it was definitely an exploration of life in a completely open different way we sold we sold everything so the house or the business we really cut the links that we had with the life that we were leading and started completely anew bought a piece of Woodman’s you know very different from living in the big city to living in the middle of nowhere build a house there and build a whole new life home educated the kids so yeah it couldn’t be a bigger u-turn I think but the idea was to actually decondition

ourselves because over the years we had actually seen that you know even though we had problems with the system we have very much participants and part of that system and I think that was come back to a question was it difficult I think that was really the the burning issue for us you know you can’t just say you know look at look at this or look at them or look at this company or look at this government or whatever now you have to say you know actually I contribute to that every day so yeah that’s chapter

four and I think that you broke out yeah and waited with a complete open idea of what what could lead to and how did it feel those first few years was in the States right yeah complete a complete sense of freedom I mean I also had to let go of identity because I hadn’t realized how much I had identified but I had created the company had created the work I was doing I was speaking many events I was doing leadership quests and and all of a sudden you know when you when you break that people forget about you very

quickly you know the the inbox and emails was reduced to 20 to 10 to 3 emails after a couple of months and then you know it’s like oh that’s interesting so what really four who really am I and what how important was that identity and that recognition because then in the middle of the woods and you’re just a human in the middle of the woods with no badge with no nothing you are a dad you know that’s the most important thing you are you know part of a family and you’re part of this bigger family that we were

part of and so it was it was a tremendous shift and another big big realization was that I thought I was always living very much in a moment but I realized there how much actually I was always thinking of the next thing you know what’s the next project was the next activity what’s the next challenge and that wasn’t there because there wasn’t the next thing the next day yeah we had to still produce food and you know educate the kids but it was very much a day-to-day life and so the whole rhythm of life the whole concept of how

you live your life was completely completely different and that’s very refreshing exercise well I think I’m still in that chapter but the if we made it yet this more idea graphical we we were away for five years and so that’s chapter four a and I think we know in Chapter four B you know we’re still in this sort of exploring state I think we never go back to to a conventional lifestyle we both feel very strongly how important is to stay open to what can emerge and I think the how we have been infected by the Native

American spirit of you know living as a small part of the big a whole and being open to what presents itself is something that we I think will never step away from but doing that here is a whole different challenge than doing it you know back in the woods or even when we were traveling to livers if a connected life and living that that sort of conscious life was far easier when you live in nature when you when you have to this different rhythm of life but then coming back here and trying to implement that way of living has been

quite challenging since we came back yeah what are the main challenges well you know you you have to participate you can’t just build a wall around you I mean you could but that also is I think that wouldn’t be that wouldn’t be part of this open lifestyle so you you want to participate in whatever community you’re part of but that means that you’re you’re receptive to all these elements that society brings in were children educating children we have complete freedom how to educate a kid we had nothing to nobody to to report to we

just intuitively you know I mean we did a lot of research but we made our decisions how we we should educate our kids about what we expose them to we didn’t expose into when we bring them here into school I mean we’ve tried to pick the best possible school but still you have to accept that you know people do things in a different way that you might not necessarily relate to so is it compromising I think it’s more accepting that you can’t just create your own world completely as we did in those five

years that we lived in the woods that’s one aspect but more importantly I think is that you know you want to we wanted to bring back our life so we want to bring back so we had learned into this world and then you know you actually you’re hitting the walls and the the constraints of the system and condition mindset that are being created all the time and yeah if you then also want to play an active role and the change that you want to see in the world that’s that’s maybe maybe the next year after I

don’t know when it started it’s it gradually came upon us when we decided to document the experience that we’d had and so we released a film to enough years ago you know and in Holland and yeah from that moment on you’re actually in the picture and and right into the system again then to still keep up that lifestyle has been an incredible challenge yeah so maybe we are in chapter 5 now what would you call it craziness yeah chaos yeah I was think of chaos it’s not just chaos but and it’s been the most challenging part of my

life the recent years because at one end we’ll be trying to bring into the world I didn’t feel like I was living there everyday anymore so I start to feel bittersweet hmm so what is it that you’re trying to bring into the world well that I just want to share what we experienced by breaking away that we have I think a lost track a little bit of who we really are yeah I mean it’s it’s quite big if you think about it you know but for me there’s no doubt in my mind that we have lost our path collectively as humanity and that

we’re living in a very very important time also a very exciting time I mean this was a beautiful thing as well when you speak through my Native American friends they will tell you we’re living in the most exciting time of mankind you know and we actually we actually part of it and the biggest transformational shift that that mankind has seen and it’s not you know it’s not technology that’s changing but it’s really the you know the change in consciousness that we that we write in the way that we see in

this moment so what am I trying to bring out you know that we I think we have to we have to go back we have to really slow down and ask ourselves what we’re doing here you know and what what responsibilities we carry for future generations and when I met the Native Americans for the first time and he said well whoa well what’s your frustration you seem frustrated said well my frustration is that are doing wonderful work but where I’m doing you know the the short-term thinking in the corporate world where I

am and basically the world in general is basically you know killing everything that we’re trying to protect and I said you know the the horizon for decisions is one year two years out two years is long-term and he said the chief said of the moment is it do you know that we as leaders of our communities every decision that we take has to be good for the next seven generations wow that’s that’s kind of different and but it’s not it’s real it’s real they they they are connected seven generations that

have and seven generations back that’s it that’s where I’ll start you know it’s a completely different look of who we are and how we are connected to to life and to you know this perception of time that we have this perception of what we are to do here the perception of life and death it’s very different not just there but in all the indigenous community we have encountered so if you if you see that life which is an ongoing cycle you know you you you have a very different attitude towards everything

and everything that you touch and everything you do in life and I think because we have lost that way of looking at you know who we are where we come from where we going and I think that has really screwed us up so you know we can talk about sustainability and you know we can talk about SDG since it’s all very important but if you still do that with the same kind of mindset it’s just you know it’s just tinkering with with the levers that we have I think the most important thing to make sure that we are

not on this no longer the RAM course which we are you know just 14 is no doubt about it anymore when we started our journey 2000 beginning of beginning of the new millennium you know there was a lot of there was a lot of debate you know how real is the threat and you know people just couldn’t see there couldn’t see the problem um I think that at least that Elise has changed but to change it but the same mindset it’s not gonna it’s not gonna work so it’s really about changing the whole underlaying sense of who we

are and how we look at life and in that sense I think you know we have a beautiful spirit of share that is shared amongst basically all the tribal all the natural living people or the world and we have to ask ourselves why do they still live in a sustainable way and we with all our evolvement and all our knowledge and all our technology [Music] during your five-year travels around the world you met many wasting keepers what do you think is for you personally the most important thing that they that

you’ve learned from them one thing yeah there’s a there’s a range of things I mean we try to we try to answer this question with a 90-minute film and now you want one thing 20 seconds maybe the most important things is is there some kind of essence do it well the essence on a personal level is actually very very basic and is that we we are born with a compass that we’ve forgotten to use and we have created a navigation tool that we think is a navigation tool that besides up here which is totally

inadequate to navigate us through life and that we have been given this compass that we that we all have that we can use in any situation it’s a weather proof it’s it’s a circumstance proof but can you still connect with it I think that’s still probably one of the most powerful and important messages that we can learn from these people you know we’ve become walking heads and everything in our society is geared towards our rational mind especially in this age of technology interestingly you know I was a conference about with to a

change makes from around the world and it was sort of trying to find out the most important questions of our time you know trying how we can how can we manifest change and we spend a week on a boat together and there was a lot of people talking about AI being the solution and so I find this interesting you know the people think you know the more we actually keep working on this on this path of progress of becoming smart and and you know creating even ever evolving technologies that that will ultimately

solve our problems I have serious doubts about that why she’s not does I just feel that that’s not gonna be bringing the solution you know I think that technology will play a big part in creating solutions but it’s it’s our spirit and our connectedness that can combined with our intelligence we can we can solve every anything but taking it apart out you take you take the heart you take the spirit out of things then you know we will just keep going in this dark hole it’s out there like we said before you know that’s that’s if that’s

a real possibility what would you call the compass is it your heart or your intuition I think it’s everything from the from the neck line down basically everything but your mind I think so you know there’s people talk you know we have to live from our heart we have to trust our gut with just our intuition we have to you know be in touch with our spirit and all these things are related with one another but it’s a whole sensing ability you know everything that we that we can feel that we can sense

that we are in connection with that is very much how all these people live by that’s what’s basically helping to to make the real decision Drive I mean we have a mind because we have to know how we move where we park the car you know how we pay our bills you know how we how we fix something but it’s like that’s just a processor that’s not a tool that can navigate that’s not a compass hmm and I think you know this is what we I’m being told all the time you know the more we analyze you know and we we get

statistics and we get more knowledge and we get more experiences and you know we put everything on the table and then we can make the perfect decision well guess what have you tried it hmm it doesn’t work no it seems to work for a little while but you know you you you you you lose track of what it is that you are here to do and so yeah I think that is you say you say how do we do it it’s basically stop running you know they say it literally in the film you know we have to stop running we have to

stop you know being in this in this rat race and this threat mil of you know doing more and attaining more knowledge I mean in my work with coaching leaders the most difficult cases other people have read all the books that have done all the trainings because they’re trying to to follow these pathways that a lot of people have described for them forgetting that you know the the real leader ship is from within outward I mean if we talk about the the leadership ideas that these people have and and the

leaders that the these communities choose it’s the total opposite of the way we do it in our society the total opposite you know we’re looking at the smartest people in the educational system you know they get a certain grade they’re put these smart people together in a room and we see you know who comes out on top and you know the one with with the most sort of manifestation power with the strongest personality then gets a top job and that’s a crown on a career in this process we created it’s very difficult not to create a big

ego very difficult it’s also you know we put so much value into what they can think of is the right way that’s a very different way that our leadership originally was meant to be I mean leadership is to lead a community and serving the greater good if leaders in any indigenous communities are recognized at a young age nobody’s happy to be recognized as leader because they know it’s a life long in service for the community so it starts with responsibility and it ends with responsibility as well and it’s not

a it’s not a job it’s not a role it’s a way of life and you’re always in service of the community not just this community but also generations ahead that means that you know there’s very difficult different type of people that they also you know select and how people are nurtured is also completely different it’s actually you know just raising them with certain values and understanding of a part in the bigger picture the whole way that leaders are raised in indigenous communities is about actually

not letting the ego get away not like the ego emerged too much but actually you know create humility and this sense of service I mean how different can I get if you look at the young people that are recognized it’s actually the people that are recognized as leaders in the indigenous community are the ones that actually squashed in our school system they don’t even managed to get through often you have to ask ourselves why would they choose the highly sensitive ones as Future Leaders why would they do that

the ones that actually you know have a heart and coping in our system because they’re so sensitive so if if we make this practical in a Western boardroom and let me state it differently if we make wisdom based leadership practical but what what would it look like in the boardroom well very different than the way many boardrooms are looking at feeling like now when you look at the position of the of the leader he or she is often seen as the one that has the answers or has the ideas or knows where to go

they’ve been given a lot of the expectation of leaders in our world today is that they sort of the smartest person in the room they know they know where to take an organization they know what’s good for the organization and its stakeholders so they have a focus on you know creating a strategy and realizing a certain result related to that strategy in a world of Western both leadership there is a there’s a shared goal there’s a shared vision of where we want to go but the one thing the leader knows for

sure is that he or she has no exact idea how to manifest that vision yet he or she has a very clear idea what the most optimal process is of bringing people together and letting people flourish and letting things unfold that you can’t even imagine in the in the moment where you are now what you know the day after more is going to look like so from a focus converging focus actually is actually the most important role for leaders to open things up so in the way that he or she leads their team is not

to say you know these are the results and we’re gonna see you know how far have we come because you know our plan was holy and we can execute on a plan this whole idea of about having a plan is actually quite pretentious and kind of arrogant in a world where change is the only certainty so it has to be much more in the moment and a basically every meeting you know you have an openness to new things that kind of come to the table and there’s always this understanding that everybody that’s in that room is kind of equal not that

people have different roles you know a leader has a role to bring things together and you know to to hold the space for the team but the member should be feel much freer to actually diverse from a plan or to experiment and to bring in new things that actually have come to the table since since the last meeting without fear for you know being seen as not loyal to the plan so it’s it’s really a very different way of the focusing on trusting the process and trusting that if you bring the right people in the room and you you follow

your gut about where something doesn’t feel right rather than following your mind and say we had said ABC and now we’re going to check if it’s still ABC the whole energy completely transforms so if your role as a leader your role to actually set out the strategy follow the plan execute and control or if you roll something completely different and say we have a shared vision but I’m actually going to follow my gut and see where are people actually creating new ideas where are people actually finding this bowl of

creativity because ultimately you know that’s that’s our that’s our gift that’s what we these are the two big resources that we actually lead is creativity and energy and the replenishable resources now people are usually working with justice you know convention resource you have a bucket of time and a bucket of money you have so many people when you have so much budget that’s that’s your resources well that’s a very rudimentary way of looking at your resources so if leaders think that they are there to manifest

the bottom line by focusing on results and I think they they live in the old days also because the young people that come aboard they understand that this is not a way of living this is not understand a way of manifesting I think you know there’s a whole new generation of people that doesn’t want to make money here and then spend it there and have a good time or doing something purposeful they want it all included and you know that’s what we have to offer to them and if we can’t offer that within

five to ten years those companies will be gone however big they are you have to bring the whole package together and that’s what you have to that’s your responsibility so you and the amount you pay it’s not going to compensate for that great stuff [Music]